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Post by technician275 on Jan 27, 2018 0:32:08 GMT
Hello All
were are we at
well we have different sheets, different procedures and it can all get confusing at times
so what do we currently have, correct me if I am wrong
M3 sheets by me
M4 triton sheets plus M4 bigram tables by me NO OTO sheets
M4 ADV by Mauser (really cool many thanks)
adv bigram tables triton tables hydra tables hydra oto triton oto Kenngruppenbuch
we have two triton tables, Triton M4 and TritonM4[adv]
this can be a bit confusing .
so I propose that we either
use the same TRITON tables or
we Rename one of the Triton sheets for the FLK procedure
I do not wish to people in a corner, but some one(us) needs to make a decision.
so the members vote or admin staff take charge
two different files with same name can only lead to problems.
I am open to suggesting and new ideas
regards
OIK
Kenngruppenbuch
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Post by bjbackitiskm4rb on Jan 27, 2018 14:01:33 GMT
this can be a bit confusing .
so I propose that we either use the same TRITON tables or we Rename one of the Triton sheets for the FLK procedure As mentioned in the Welcome Newbies and Useful Links post by Arnaud, the FLK procedure isn't needed going forward in 2018. I absolutely agree that we shouldn't have two separate Triton tables. My vote would be to have the ones defined for the M4 Advanced procedure [EWCG2018ADV] be used for the M4 basic procedure [EWCG2018TRITON] as well. The basic procedure can have it's own set of Bigram tables since it is based on the month rather than a designated table A-J for a given day as documented in the K-book. The other existing Triton M4 codesheet can be used for one of the other radio nets defined in the K-book such as Neptun or Thetis (if the officers sheets for it are created as well). As I mentioned in a previous post, the officers sheets for Triton and Hydra in the advanced procedures have 11 steckerboard pairs so they should be updated to only show the first ten.
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Post by technician275 on Jan 28, 2018 0:23:29 GMT
just so I am clear about this, [EWCG2018] = M3 procedures [EWCG2018TRITON] = basic M4 procedures [EWCG2018ADV] = M4 advanced procedures offizier to offizier is an embedded procedure in basic and advanced but require their own code sheets. if everyone is happy we can use the above prefix's for the appropriate message BUT....do we rename a TRITON sheet or ONLY have one?? I am in favour of renaming a TRITON sheet, why? because Arnaud put it so eloquently, the "Mauser" pack. and I agree www.enigmaworldcodegroup.com/m4-advanced-procedure has all the files you need for the advanced procedures so we keep the remaining procedures separate on a different page. people we need input from other members, so pretty please with sugar on top and ice cream in the middle post a like, dislike, comment, regards OIK
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Post by Arnaud on Jan 28, 2018 20:58:26 GMT
My proposition would be,
[EWCG2018] = M3 procedures - M3 Codesheets
[EWCG2018TRITON] = basic M4 procedures - Triton Codesheets + Triton OtO extracted from the Mauser pack and it's own 12 bigram tables
I propose that people could also use the other network sheets (with the same set of bigram table for all networks), provided that they use the according tag
[EWCG2018ADV] = M4 advanced procedures - Mauser pack + possibly one or two extra sets of codesheets pack for extra networks with OtO (I can make them if you want)
This will enable us to minimize confusion, have more fun (with the extra packs) and also the January Challenge by technician275 is still decipherable (does this word even exist???)
If needed, it is possible to create a poll on this forum. (however, the last one only got 4 votes..LOL)
I kinda lack the time lately but I'll do my best to keep up to date with the developments.
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Post by technician275 on Jan 29, 2018 21:29:54 GMT
I am all for a Poll, democracy at work
but let the poll run until we have sufficient votes
say 5 votes that way we wont have a hung jury(we only had 4 on the last one, but I believe we can reach new heights this year )
the options
A) have only one TRITON sheet for both procedures
b) rename one of the two TRITON sheets
lets get ready to Rumble
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Post by ZZ9pZa on Feb 5, 2018 10:18:45 GMT
I vote for A
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Post by Arnaud on Feb 5, 2018 15:38:57 GMT
Ok, I must admit I am a little lost. Because I have noticed several times before that, what is clear in my mind is not necessarly what other people understand, I will try to explain how I see it. To me, A and B give out the same result. If you rename one of the Triton as something else (eg Thetis) (option B), we then have only one Triton to be used with both procedures (option A) and we do get third network to be used in the ADV procedure. So, if technician275 was to extract the Triton codesheets from the mauser pack and change his link in the " M4 - Triton codesheets" post and, someone (if no one is available it could be me) was to add links to one or two extra sets of codesheets to be used in the ADV procedure..... this is what I would vote for.
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Post by technician275 on Feb 5, 2018 17:11:31 GMT
Hi Arnaud
the way I see things, is we have two different Triton sheets with the same name used in two different methods. so, we either rename one of the sheets, for example the "Mauser" sheets to Tritonadv or the other sheets to, again as an example, Tritonbasic. two methods two sheets.
OR
we delete one set and have two methods and only one Triton sheets, and as suggested, change the links in my post.
I am fine with either solution.
so all we need is members to vote.
I vote B
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Post by ZZ9pZa on Feb 5, 2018 22:05:37 GMT
Can I change my vote? After reading the options as mentioned above I’m for the “Thetis” option.
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Post by technician275 on Feb 5, 2018 22:56:28 GMT
Can I change my vote? After reading the options as mentioned above I’m for the “Thetis” option.
Hi All
I am for the name change, don't forget( because I just remembered) the ADVANCED procedure has only TEN bigram tables, labelled A to J and its own OTO sheets. I think the "MAUSER PACK" should be left on its own.
Any and all other procedures should have their own unique sheets
OIK
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Post by bjbackitiskm4rb on Feb 6, 2018 10:26:24 GMT
Can I change my vote? After reading the options as mentioned above I’m for the “Thetis” option.
Hi All
I am for the name change, don't forget( because I just remembered) the ADVANCED procedure has only TEN bigram tables, labelled A to J and its own OTO sheets. I think the "MAUSER PACK" should be left on its own.
Any and all other procedures should have their own unique sheets
OIK
But if we rename the other Triton to a different radio net and use it with the advanced procedures, it doesn't need it's own bigram tables... it would use the ones as defined in the K-book as part of the advanced procedures. I don't understand why it would need any different Bigram sheets (the ones created for it initially should be discarded. I vote for "rename to Thetis" option
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Post by technician275 on Feb 6, 2018 22:36:58 GMT
Hi All
I am for the name change, don't forget( because I just remembered) the ADVANCED procedure has only TEN bigram tables, labelled A to J and its own OTO sheets. I think the "MAUSER PACK" should be left on its own.
Any and all other procedures should have their own unique sheets
OIK
But if we rename the other Triton to a different radio net and use it with the advanced procedures, it doesn't need it's own bigram tables... it would use the ones as defined in the K-book as part of the advanced procedures. I don't understand why it would need any different Bigram sheets (the ones created for it initially should be discarded. I vote for "rename to Thetis" option If we rename the other Triton to a different radio net and use the K-book, we Lose the Original Triton[FLK] procedure. I don't see the point is using the K-book twice for the same procedure.
On a different note, I am working on a training procedure for the "RHV" method, which does use the K-book in a different way. this is slow going but I'll get there.
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Post by bjbackitiskm4rb on Feb 8, 2018 4:52:19 GMT
Don't feel like quoting... Here's my thought... we have procedures and we have codesheets. Procedures are for the M3, the M4 Basic, and M4 Advanced. M4 Basic has a set of 12 bigram tables (based on the calendar) and directions on using the codesheets. The M4 Advanced has a set of 10 bigram tables and the calendar days to use which, along with the K-book and other things that let you indicate which codesheets to use. But for the M4, is there a real difference between the actual codesheets based on the procedures? So why can't we have a Triton, a Hydra, and a Thetis set of codesheets. If you're using the M4 Advanced procedure, you use those bigram tables and the key indicator group tells you which codesheet to use. If you use the M4 BASIC procedure you use those Bigram tables but you have to say which codesheet to use... EWCG2018TRITON, EWCG2018HYDRA, EWCG2018THETIS tags before the message. One set of codesheets for the radio net, which can be used with either the basic or advanced procedure. K-Book only comes in to play in the advanced procedure, where you just tag the message with EWCG2018ADV. So now you have THREE different M4 options with the basic procedure instead of just one. Three sets of codesheets (one for each net) and two sets of bigram tables (one for each procedure) for the M4. Does that make sense?? Seems the most flexible yet less prone to mistakes.
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Post by Arnaud on Feb 8, 2018 14:19:56 GMT
Don't feel like quoting... Here's my thought... we have procedures and we have codesheets. Procedures are for the M3, the M4 Basic, and M4 Advanced. M4 Basic has a set of 12 bigram tables (based on the calendar) and directions on using the codesheets. The M4 Advanced has a set of 10 bigram tables and the calendar days to use which, along with the K-book and other things that let you indicate which codesheets to use. But for the M4, is there a real difference between the actual codesheets based on the procedures? So why can't we have a Triton, a Hydra, and a Thetis set of codesheets. If you're using the M4 Advanced procedure, you use those bigram tables and the key indicator group tells you which codesheet to use. If you use the M4 BASIC procedure you use those Bigram tables but you have to say which codesheet to use... EWCG2018TRITON, EWCG2018HYDRA, EWCG2018THETIS tags before the message. One set of codesheets for the radio net, which can be used with either the basic or advanced procedure. K-Book only comes in to play in the advanced procedure, where you just tag the message with EWCG2018ADV. So now you have THREE different M4 options with the basic procedure instead of just one. Three sets of codesheets (one for each net) and two sets of bigram tables (one for each procedure) for the M4. Does that make sense?? Seems the most flexible yet less prone to mistakes. I do feel like quoting... I have been thinking about this and it took a long time for me to put it into a format that would be understandable by those living outside my head. Now that I finally have the time to post it, I come here to see that you have already expressed it better than I could . The difference between basic and adv M4 is that in basic you're writing in plain text which codesheets you use in the header and in adv you're not telling anyone. As far as Bigram tables are concerned, I like the way you explained it...12 month based tables for basic and 10 in the adv.
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Post by technician275 on Feb 8, 2018 19:33:22 GMT
Ok
Here's a radical thought, just have [EWCG2018]. we know by looking at the message format whether its M3 or M4.
we can rename the basic sheets and bigram tables "Thetis" or we add two bigram tables to the TEN in "Masuer pack" and duel label them, January + A, February + B, March + C and so on, then we can delete the other set of bigram tables and we still rename the key sheets Thetis.
so when you want to decode a message, apply the M4 basic procedure to determine the key group, if it matches the Thetis sheet its M4 basic and if it does not match, go straight to the K-book and apply the Advanced procedure.
your not telling anyone which Radio net you are using, just like the K-book procedure, you have to figure it out.
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